Objections to Real Time comics

The heroes are timeless?

Real Time is not a threat to the timeless heroes. Marvel publishes several distinct universes: classic, Ultimates, Marvel Adventures, and many others. I am simply asking for one to be in real time. Only one. Give us a choice.

"These are timeless, legendary characters, time is unimportant"
Read the legends of Heracles or Odysseus or Thor, the archetypal heroes. They grow, they change, they get old and they die. The gods will die at Ragnarok. Oddyseus died at the hands of Telegonus, his son with Circe. Heracles dies from the hydra's blood on Nessa's tunic. Genuine timeless legendary characters change, grow old, and even die! Also, the Greek legends are tied to specific dates and places (in particular the sacking of Troy in 1184 BC)

"Heroes would grow old!"
No they would not. This has been well established in the comics. Except for a minority of characters (e.g. Dr Strange) who can age without dying.

"It is selfish to stop young readers discovering our favorites."
It is selfish to deny them a choice. New readers should be offered BOTH Marvel Time and real time.

"Marvel's legal guys will not allow changes to their properties."
They allowed the Zombie universe, the 2099 universe, the 1602 universe, the various "last X story" and "the end" stories about their deaths or retirements, and various stories set in the future. A real time comic would be no different. The regular books would be untouched.

Nobody wants Real Time?

Some of the most popular and best selling comics of all embrace real time. Clearly somebody wants it.

"Many people don't want this!"
Real time comics would not replace other comics. The 'Ultimates' line has proven that two different versions of a title can run in parallel.

"It would destroy the status quo!"
Marvel Time destroys the status quo of successful comics, which is character development, realism, and danger. Marvel Time created a new status quo of stagnant characters, irrelevance, and safety. Real Time would return the original status quo - dynamism!

"TV series (etc.) succeed by giving only the illusion of change"
TV series have real change. Soap opera characters age. Other shows only last a few years at most.

“I don’t want realism, I want escapism.”
The most successful escapist fiction has a strong connection with the real world. That makes the escapist parts even more exciting.

“The fans want nostalgia”
Most fans grew bored with comics long ago and left. The only ones left are those who don't like change.

"Timeless superheroes outsell other kinds of comics."
No, manga outsells superheroes, and superheroes have been in terminal decline for thirty years, despite huge brand recognition and high profile movies.

"Apart from manga, superheroes outsell real time stuff."
Real Time superheroes sold even better. But I agree that there will always be a market for timeless hero comics. We need both kinds.

Real Time creates problems?

"The characters would become unrecognizable"
As we saw in the 1998 Fantastic Four annual, or "Fantastic Four: The End", the characters do not become unrecognizable, even after many decades.

"The real time stories would be too serious"
The opposite is true: compare the 1960s Real Time comics with their present versions.

"We cannot generate good new characters at this rate"
Comics have no trouble generating great new characters when they inject real time.

"A real time universe would still repeat stories"
All media repeat story ideas, but individual characters develop. That's a big difference.

It would create a mess of continuity?
The opposite is true. Messy continuity is caused by Marvel Time's retcons and the inability to tie events to years. Nobody ever gets confused by real time. Do you get the real 1960s confused with the real 1990s? No, because major events only happen once, there is logical causality, and every event has a clear date.

"Modern uncompressed stories need more time to tell a story"
The old, more detailed stories sold more. But if you want uncompressed stories then just have more pages. It works for manga.

"Real time can be too constricting"
The opposite is true: Marvel Time prevents any stories that involve real change. Real Time has no such restrictions.

"Real time forces one month per month"
Not true. Real time simply means events can be dated, but the stories can be told at any pace. Sherlock Holmes is a perfect example of this: the stories often refer to real dates, but are not told in any strict order.

“Let the independents try it, why should Marvel take risks?”
Independents and other companies have already proven that real time comics work. But Marvel has a bigger opportunity because of its huge stable of characters who are going nowhere

Real Time is irrelevant to good stories?

"You just don't like comics. You outgrew them."
Why should people grow out of comics? They don't grow out of movies or TV or books or other forms of entertainment. Only comics insist on repeating the same youthful formula, and only comics lose most of their readers when the readers get older. Why throw away half your readers? It does not have to be that way.

"We don't need real time, we just need better writing"
And how do you guarantee good writing? The best stories have more real-time elements

"Poor sales have little to do with the stories, it's the fault of video and the Internet"
Manga thrives in the same environment.

"Manga thrives without Real Time."
The typical manga is far closer to Real Time than the typical western comic. Here's a quote I used elsewhere on this site, from 'An Introduction to Manga:'

"Manga stay fresh and vibrant because they have to keep on finding new authors and winning over readers. Unlike in America, where Spider-Man or Superman are still wearing their underpants outside their trousers after forty, or sixty, years, in Japan not every successful series has to last forever. Manga engage you because they chart the lives and growth of characters and do actually come to a conclusion. It may take thousands of pages, but you can see genuine change going on, not just the 'illusion of change' found in most superhero soap operas."

"James Bond doesn't need real time"
James Bond has more real time than modern Marvel. You can watch any Bond movie and identify the exact period when it was made. That's half the enjoyment of watching the old DVDs! You can read the books and see references to real world places, dates, and people (David Niven appears twice!) But real time is less important for Bond because there are several years between each instalment so we can view each one as a new start. That is not true with a monthly comicbook serial.

"Tarzan doesn't need real time"
Tarzan is the exception that proves the rule. He is an idealized archetype, a black and white hero in a world of serpents, monsters and evil priests. He only works because he is entirely separate from mundane reality. Pallavi Mogre explained that Tarzan'a Africa is nothing like the real Africa, his world is nothing like the real world, it is a distant dream world:

"The basic appeal of Tarzan lies in the fact that Burroughs, a ‘master dreamer’, provides an alternative Utopia that we can inhabit. Tarzan’s world is an Eden that no serpent can invade (and if it is indeed invaded, Tarzan always overcomes), an Elysium that is idyllic and tranquil in spite of the action. To cut a long story short, an environment that one can dominate completely."

The only characters who can avoid time are the gods and archetypes who exist outside any world that we might recognize.

"The Simpsons don't need real time."
The Simpsons is a comedy, not a drama. Drama has serious consequences, comedy does not. That's the whole point.

Yet even the Simpsons has more real time than modern Marvel. Each episode is full of familiar mundane landscapes and ordinary people. The stories are nearly all based on real world events or movies. And when someone important dies they stay dead.

"Peanuts didn't need real time."
Charlie Brown was already an adult, just in a child's body. And it wasn't an adventure serial, more a sries of observations.

"Sherlock Holmes succeed without real time."
Have you ever read Sherlock Holmes? Almost every adventure is tied to specific dates and events! It is perhaps the most real-time story ever created!

"Some stories succeed without any real time elements."
Can you name any? Any highly successful continuing stories that lack real time references?

"If you want change then keep changing comics."
That destroys the reader's relationship with the characters.

Marvel was never Real Time in the 1960s?

“Stan Lee was the one who invented Real Time"
This is quite true. He invented Marvel Time precisely because Real Time stories were moving so fast. The evidence speaks for itself. The quality of stories then began to decline and sales stopped rising, but the slow death has been stretched out for forty (mostly profitable) years, so I guess Marvel Time did its job.

“Marvel characters did not change much in the 1960s"
Read the comics. What happened to the High School kid Human Torch? Or the skinny high school Peter Parker who never dated? Or the gentle, animal loving Hulk? Or the angry Thing? Or Sergeant Fury and his howling Commandos? Grown up and changed. And readers loved it!

“Superheroes were never supposed to make sense”
Then why did those early Marvels publish pages on how powers work? And cutaway diagrams of the Baxter Building? Why did the heroes have weaknesses? Because it added to the realism. Realism matters.

Modern comics still have references to current events
Yes, but not very many, and they are shallow. In the 1960s (and sometimes as far as the mid 1970s) the references were more frequent and more direct. Take this panel from Hulk 159 (below). Can you imagine a modern Marvel comic being so relevant and up to date?

Real Time element:	1960s Marvel	Claremont/Byrne X-Men	Marvel Time	New Universe
Origin stories from the real world?	The Fantastic Four arose out of the space race. The Hulk arose out of nuclear testing. Iron Man arose out of the Vietnam conflict. The original X-men arose from fears of radiation, and from the rise of the teenager. Even Thor was based on real world legends.	The new X-Men arose from an interest in post-Watergate conspiracies and anti-heroes, who were popular at the time.	Marvel Time is unable to create memorable new heroes.	The White Event, Spitfire's armor, and StarBrand's origin just came out of nowhere
Real world people and groups?	President Kennedy and other leaders often featured in early Marvel stories. (Sometimes you only saw the back of their head, but it was obvious who there were).	Often dealt with the Canadian government, Japanese government, the hellfire club (a real organization) etc.	Marvel Time is deliberately vague. But they have more sense than to be deliberately wrong. Captain America was once almost elected President in issue 250, but the editors stopped it because this would be too different from the real world.	Very little is familiar. Even the football team in Kickers was imaginary. When real world people are shopwn they are clearly not from our world. Later in the series Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev are parahumans. Then a supervillain is elected as president.
Amazing stories, yet believable?	Galactus threatened the world, but all the public saw was a giant on a distant rooftop, and the papers said it was a hoax. The Mole Man threatened to submerge all the world's major cities, but was stopped just in time and the government hushed it up. The Skrulls invaded, but only four made it to earth before they were stopped.	Nearly all the battles took place in secret. So the public never knew, or it was covered up as freak weather, terrorists, accidental gas explosions, etc.	Heroes often trash buildings, but the public get used to it. The government has special clean-up squads. Writers are careful to make sure that America is never damaged too much.	At first the writers were afraid to have too much action. Mark Gruenwald explained: "Many creative teams believed that it [realism] meant that the New U had to remain "the world outside your window", and thus nothing too earth-shaking could be allowed to happen for fear of having that reader-recognizable world become different." Later the writers panicked and went to the other extreme, with "The Pitt" - a high profile destruction of the entire city of Pittsburgh. The world is completely changed.
Comics follow real world trends?	Stories based on an increasing market interest in superheroes, and fashions for monsters and sci-fi movies.	Stories based on an increased interest in conspiracies, anti-heroes, and relationship-based fiction.	Stories milk an existing fan base, but do not reflect current interests.	No established readership and no demand for more superheroes.